Talking back about talking back.

Thanks for taking the time to help a Mom trying to refine her approach. Your varied responses have been enlightening and thought-provoking.

It's interesting that several of you chose to respond to me privately instead of using the public "comments" section. I feel compelled to share anonymous excerpts from your private e-mail responses because they were so very helpful and insightful.

Hope you don't mind. If so, it's kinda too late.

Mom #1:

"Your engaging with him in the negotiations is the payoff - even if you are not technically giving in. Just the fact that you continue to respond to him is positive reinforcement for the behavior. What I did with [my children] was make the request and stop talking. If they argued, I said something one time like, "No, we are not discussing this. You are going to do ..." Then I said nothing else, no matter what they said.

I sometimes used body language (stern expression, pointing, etc.), but I did not talk again if the child tried to argue. When they were small enough to physically pick up and take them wherever, that worked well. If you do this, the behavior will ramp up at first, so get ready, but it will stop sooner than you think. Because he is used to your responding, he will likely talk louder, repeat himself over and over, or even yell or cry, but he'll get tired of that. I think you'll be surprised. You just have to tune out the whining and go about your business cheerfully as if you never ever heard it. The key words are "firm, calm, and in control," though you may think you are going to completely lose it if he says one more thing. At first, you may have to repeat the "No, we are not discussing this" a few times, but say it calmly and be sure to keep it short (don't embellish) and say the EXACT SAME SHORT phrase so he gets the message.

You have to remember that if Jack darts into the path of an oncoming car, you will not have time to explain the laws of Physics to him. You need him to obey you immediately and without question in some situations. That thought always helped keep me focused when I dealt with this. And nipping this behavior in the bud does not mean you stop explaining things to and exploring ideas with your boys. You can do that at the zoo and at the park, and during non-confrontational times when you don't have to draw a line in the sand. Yes, we want our children to be non-conformists and free thinkers so they will succeed in the real world, but we also know that in the real world there is a time to hold our tongues and not say everything we think."

Mom #2:

"We tell him what he's doing is arguing with Mommy. "You are not to argue with Mommy." Sometimes a simple "Do you trust Mommy?" diffuses the whole situation.... "Then you need to obey" (we tell him - a lot - that true obedience is doing something immediately, completely and cheerfully). So if he's not showing a right response, we practice how it should be done.

And when he does it right, we cheer him big time! (i.e. "YAYAYAYAY! That's how you should do it! The first time Mommy asks you, and with a cheerful heart! Way to go! [Son,] do you know when you respond like that you are becoming more like Jesus!? And you're honoring Mom and Dad! And that pleases God. YAYAYAY!!!!")"

When I was young, (I feel as though) I was allowed to reason with my Mom way too much. I think this was a combination of her trying to give me a voice, and my absolute stubborn insistence finally wearing her down. I would argue my point into the ground with her and Dad, no matter how small. I remember when Dad told me I could not hang my Milli Vanilli poster in my bedroom. I was about ten years old. He told me I was not going to have a huge poster with two grown men on my bedroom wall. I vehemently argued how completely unfair it was that Trey was allowed to have a poster with David Robinson and Michael Jordan on his wall. Most of the time I argued until I got spanked. Even then, I had to have the last word. If I couldn't, I had to have the last eye-roll, the last sigh, the last door slam...

In fifth grade I remember stating my case over and over about getting points off while the kid next to me did the same thing and got full credit. I asked questions about many of the class rules. "Why do I have to do more work just because I finish before the other kids do? So I get punished because I am efficient? With all due respect... That doesn't seem fair."

In high school, I tried to reason with my teachers, "I don't understand. Why are you worried about me sleeping in class when I am getting straight A's? Shouldn't you be worried about the kids sitting in the front taking notes and getting C's and D's? I mean, I am just asking. With all due respect..."

Fast forward to my entry into corporate America. Even at age 16, working at Kinko's, I questioned why there were certain statements in the Employee Handbook that were out of date. I mean, I was being asked to sign a form for my personnel file saying I agree with everything in the Handbook when there are parts that are not correct? "With all due respect, I really don't want to put that in my file unless there is a small addendum."

For as far back as I can remember, I secretly felt like I was smarter or more complex than my bosses and teachers. All of them.

I am not saying that Mom failed or that she took the wrong approach parenting me. Now that I am a mother, I am just amazed that she did not send me to boarding school or admit herself into the loony bin.

This feeling of being entitled to an explanation or reason that suits me has not served me well in many many real-world situations. I have overwhelmed my coworkers and college project groups with questioning and demands for explanations. Until I was convinced that something made sense, was the most efficient way, or was worth my time and/or energy, I had a hard time following directions or completing assigned tasks. I have been hard to manage, I have rubbed people the wrong way, and I have been coached on certain behaviors at work, most of which lead back to my inability to discern the right way and right time to "be heard" and to "have my say."

There were times I needed to understand, "This is not an appropriate time to ask questions or demand explanations. I will wait until a more appropriate time to bring this up. In the meantime, I am just going to do it." I can look back on (several) specific situations when my ideas or suggestions would have been well-received or even implemented had I waited and trusted the processes or authorities in place. I often wonder if my bosses have ever said, "Good grief, here she goes again. She asks so many questions she exhausts me. Even if she has a valid point, I don't have time to explain why we do every little thing we do."

No, I really don't want my son to blindly follow authority or mindlessly carry out orders with a programmed, "Yes sir." Mom has always told me, "People who think like you are people who change the world. You are hard to wrangle, but you are the changemakers." I can appreciate this aspect as well. Just like Jack, more often than not I feel like "I have a better idea." I go into stores, companies, schools, banks, doctors' offices, and almost immediately feel like I could improve things. I analyze processes, envision major change and innovation, and challenge inefficiencies. I recognize that the ability to reason and think critically is a skill and an asset.

I do want Jack Everett to be able to change the world and make a difference, critically assessing life situations. However, at this young age, I am most concerned with laying the foundation that throughout his life, God will place him under authority (albeit flawed) - teachers, bosses, law enforcement, etc. and He expects His children to respect and obey, even at times we don't fully agree.

I want Him to know that although God's truth stands up to the most extreme scrutiny and exhaustive questioning, in the end, He commands us to trust Him and obey... fully and completely.
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More to come, I am sure... please continue the comments and dialogue...